Episode 6: “Like a Boss”

Alesha Dixon:
Welcome to Wear It’s At with me, Alesha Dixon, a podcast all about midi-life milestones brought to you by online styling service, Stitch Fix. Today, we’re discussing bossing it and burning out in our season finale, Like A Boss, where we’ll be sharing our views on pay gaps, impostor syndrome, and the career tips you’d pass along to your younger self.

Alesha Dixon:
Now, this week I’m joined by three amazing ladies. First up, she’s been named on Fortune’s 40 Under 40 list a massive three times, and she’s the founder and CEO of Stitch Fix. She is the youngest woman ever to take a company public, and is delighted to have brought the styling service to the UK. Welcome to the show, Katrina Lake.

Katrina Lake:
Thank you for having me.

Alesha Dixon:
It’s an honor to meet you, and congratulations on everything.

Katrina Lake:
Oh, thank you very much.

Alesha Dixon:
My second guest, Katherine Ormerod, began her career at the Sunday Times, then went on to work at Glamour and Grazia. She’s also started her own consultancy business, The Fashion Content Agency, and founded the anti-perfectionism project, Work Work Work, a bit like Rihanna.

Kat Ormerod:
Exactly like Rihanna.

Alesha Dixon:
Last year she published her debut book, Why Social Media Is Ruining Your Life. I need to read that. Welcome, Katherine.

Kat Ormerod:
Thanks for having me.

Alesha Dixon:
Thank you for being here. And finally, I’m joined by best selling author, cook, and TV presenter, Jasmine Hemsley. Jasmine made waves in the wellbeing world as the founder of Hemsley and Hemsley. Well known for her love and passion for sustainable fashion, Jasmine’s third and solo cookbook, based on the ancient philosophy of Ayurveda, won wellbeing book of the year. Hi.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Hello. Hi, Alesha.

Alesha Dixon:
Lovely to have you on the show. Right, ladies. Let’s get started with the season finale of Wear It’s At. My first question for you in today’s episode is, and we’ll start with you Katrina, how do you find juggling your personal life and career?

Alesha Dixon:
Big question to start with.

Alesha Dixon:
She’s like, “I’m still trying to figure it out.”

Katrina Lake:
I don’t know that I have the answer, honestly. I think I’m really just still figuring it out. So, I have a two and half year old and a six month old at home.

Alesha Dixon:
Wow.

Katrina Lake:
And it’s just been a real challenge, honestly. And I think some parts I figured out. When I’m at home, my work is my work and my home is my home, has been… that’s been helpful boundary setting for me. But lately, it’s been really hard and so what we’ve… The hardest part for me is travel. And so I travel a lot for my job, so I travel I think about twice a month if not more. And so my baby has been on six trips with me.

Alesha Dixon:
Wow.

Katrina Lake:
But if I’m honest, I think it’s really hard and I don’t know if I can keep doing this. But I think for me, it’s just been helpful to know that there are so many other women out there that are trying to figure it out, and…

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah. I feel like everybody is kind of in the same boat in that respect, aren’t they?

Katrina Lake:
Exactly, exactly. And I think I try some things and some parts of it work, and some parts don’t. And so I just kind of learn and move on, and…

Alesha Dixon:
As you’re going along.

Katrina Lake:
But I don’t know, I’m trying to… Still figuring it out, really. If anybody else has the answers I’m very interested.

Kat Ormerod:
I just think it’s all a compromise, and we all have our own tailored version of something which isn’t ideal. So, I think you can’t judge what anyone else decides to do and you just, as you say, it’s like it’s so fluid, isn’t it? Sometimes you’re like, “This is the rhythm. It’s working, it’s working.” And then suddenly, something falls out of that rhythm and you have to switch it up again.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah. I mean, I just think we’re born survivors.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
So, it’s like we get the job done, whatever that means, you know? And I think the key is balance, isn’t it? I think if one is overpowering the other, I think that’s when you know for yourself when you need to pull back. I think that’s the blessing of being your own boss as well. You can kind of dictate those hours that you do, and hopefully tailor your schedule to make it work for your personal life and your career. How would you feel about that, Jasmine?

Jasmine Hemsley:
I mean, I think there is no formula. So, I think we all have to have our own experience. And that experience is never going to be smooth, and it’s never going to be right all the time because that would be really boring.

Alesha Dixon:
And that’s quite right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s what makes it so interesting.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Absolutely.

Alesha Dixon:
I mean, have you ever had to make a personal sacrifice for your career?

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah. I think probably the biggest one is always health. I think there’s-

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
I think there’s no way of saying that a career doesn’t come at compromise to your health. One of the most incredible quotes I ever came across was from the Dalai Lama, when he was asked what struck him most about mankind. And he said, “Man, because he spends all of his health to become wealthy.”

Alesha Dixon:
Wow.

Jasmine Hemsley:
“And then all of his wealth to become healthy.”

Kat Ormerod:
I do think as well there is something to be said of having a period in your time where you do put the groundwork in. You have to graft, and in your twenties, you have to say yes to things. It is the reality. If you’re going to build a career and you’re going to be successful, and be able to have opportunities to follow things, we can’t just say, “Oh, you’re going to be in balance the whole time.” And I think very much there’s this conversation about Millennials who will say, “Oh, I’m sorry. I have to leave at 5:00 and I’m not going to stay late for this, because I’ve really got to balance my lifestyle.”

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Kat Ormerod:
And you’re like, “You’re 22. You’ve got to pay your dues.”

Alesha Dixon:
You’ve got to go the extra mile.

Kat Ormerod:
I do really, when I look back at my twenties, I think the amount that I worked and the hours that I worked were really insane. But I couldn’t have achieved what I achieved without that.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, really good point. I mean, what did some of you actually want to do when you were a child? What were your big kind of career ambitions, whatever they were?

Jasmine Hemsley:
I think I probably went through different ones that became fashionable during nursery. I used to like, for some reason, playing with the bubbles in the bubble bath and putting them into yogurt pots and things. And I also did it with Christmas tree needles.

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And so my parents, when they asked me what I wanted to be, I used to say, “A cooker.” And they used to say, “Gas or electric?” And I obviously didn’t get it for years and years. And it was only until I was kind of interviewed having then started a career as a chef cook about 10 years ago, that that memory came back. Because it wasn’t really something I aspired to, being a chef is really, really hard work. And as a restaurant, you’re only as good as your last meal. And somehow, I kind of fell into that world just because I kind of had a belief around the healing power of home cooked food, and that’s how that happened.

Alesha Dixon:
What about you, Katherine?

Kat Ormerod:
So, I was a stage kid growing up.

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Kat Ormerod:
My West End career peaked age nine, but it was like I was full on into it. And then school got in the way, I guess, and education became everything. And I think probably until I finished my Master’s, or maybe at the end of university, I forgot about anything else except for academic achievement. And I think it got really meshed with the idea of making money, so I thought when I left university I was going to become a barrister. But I took a side job on working at Harvey Nichols, and it was in the same year that Phoebe Philo was designing at Chloe. And I was on the contemporary floor, and I just fell for fashion. And my whole family were like, “Sorry, what?”

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Kat Ormerod:
They were like… they thought that I was going to be paying their mortgage. Sorry, guys.

Jasmine Hemsley:
You were going to be a child actress.

Kat Ormerod:
Child actress.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Movie star, then a barrister.

Katrina Lake:
Good for you.

Kat Ormerod:
Well, I’ll take barrister, I was going to… And when I told them that I was going to work for free when I left my Master’s degree, they were like… They had all their hopes riding on me. I was their horse that they had backed.

Alesha Dixon:
Wow, that is crazy. That’s so cool, I love that.

Jasmine Hemsley:
That’s sweet.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah. What about you, Katrina? I mean, what did you think about when you were a young child?

Katrina Lake:
So, my mother was a teacher in public school, and my dad was a doctor. And so, I mean, that was… that’s what I saw as kind of the great professions out there. So, I wanted to be a doctor for a long time, and then it was volunteering in a hospital that did it for me. Where I was in a hospital, and I mean, it’s amazing. There’s sick people and doctors, and you’re doing all these amazing things, but just… there’s something about the work environment that I was like, “This, it doesn’t feel right.”

Katrina Lake:
And so I was lucky that in college, I majored in economics. And so I knew I liked business, so then I kind of took a path where I was at a consulting firm and learning business that way, and then kind of wandered my way into starting a company. But it’s crazy to think back because I’m sure it would’ve been cool to be a doctor, but I think it was probably the right thing that I didn’t.

Alesha Dixon:
Have you guys ever suffered from FOMOMG? I’d never heard of this before, but it’s fear of missing out on goals.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah, I think that’s… I got divorced just before I turned 30, and I think that I was absolutely plagued by this idea that my life had gone off track. I got divorced. I met a much younger guy, we got pregnant, then we… You know, we’re not married, we’ve got a baby. We live in a really small flat.

Alesha Dixon:
Life has a plan for you while you’re making plans.

Kat Ormerod:
Exactly, exactly.

Alesha Dixon:
And it’s… you can’t always fight it.

Kat Ormerod:
But I think, again, social media really brings that to a head. Because you see everyone’s experiences, and you know…

Alesha Dixon:
Yes.

Kat Ormerod:
The engagement picture, the ring on the finger, and the wedding shots. And the newborn baby picture, and the keys outside the house, you know? Like, “Finally got in. Bottle of champagne.” It’s just like, they’ve become really almost cliched milestones…

Alesha Dixon:
Yes.

Kat Ormerod:
… that then if you don’t hit those, as people increasingly aren’t, it can be really, really demoralizing I think.

Alesha Dixon:
And then going back to work life balance, do you think it’s important to take maternity leave?

Katrina Lake:
Oh, absolutely. It’s just such an important time to be able to take this space and to focus on your child, and then to be able to come back to work refreshed and excited. And to be able to have the space even at work to figure it out. And I think people talk about maternity leave and how much time you get, I think actually some of the more important things are, what is the support like when you get back to work?

Kat Ormerod:
Now, I think another thing to mention here is, so many of us now are freelance, and it’s a different world. The idea of maternity leave is… in some ways, it’s quite old fashioned.

Alesha Dixon:
Old fashioned.

Kat Ormerod:
Because it’s relevant to an office environment.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And there’s also not maternity pay when you’re a freelancer.

Kat Ormerod:
Exactly.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s right.

Kat Ormerod:
Exactly. So, there are all pros and cons. I think I definitely struggled with having to be photographed after two or three months for things, especially, we were chatting about this before, when you’re breastfeeding your boobs are so big.

Alesha Dixon:
And that looks great.

Kat Ormerod:
You know, they’ll send these clothes for a shoot, and you’re like, “Yeah, right.” You’re stretching them.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Kat Ormerod:
You’re like, “Maybe one of these would fit in there.” It’s just so overwhelming, and I think this kind of idea that you’re going to look like a certain way after three to six months when…

Alesha Dixon:
I know, it’s ridiculous.

Kat Ormerod:
… it’s not the case. It takes like a year.

Alesha Dixon:
It’s a very dangerous game.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s one thing I’ve always been quite proud of myself for. I’ve never cared what anyone thinks, I just do me. And I’m very accepting of what is.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
So, if I have a baby body, great. That’s life.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah. I mean, I think we spend a lot of our times comparing. A lot of our….

Alesha Dixon:
Comparing.

Jasmine Hemsley:
… time comparing ourselves.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Because it’s just a natural thing. That’s how you learn, that’s how you evolve, that’s how you grow.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And social media is good in that a lot of people have become very much sharing, maybe oversharing.

Alesha Dixon:
Oversharing.

Jasmine Hemsley:
So, you can see people saying…

Alesha Dixon:
Sorry.

Jasmine Hemsley:
… very much oversharing. So, people are saying, “This is what I look like. This is post baby body.” Whereas we wouldn’t have seen that when it was just magazines and runway.

Alesha Dixon:
True.

Katrina Lake:
That’s true.

Alesha Dixon:
Very true.

Jasmine Hemsley:
So, there is that. There’s obviously a lot more people to follow now, but there are elements of reality.

Alesha Dixon:
I’m getting to the point now where it’s like I’ve seen too much.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
I didn’t need to see.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Put it away.

Alesha Dixon:
Put it away. Literally, that’s me all the time. Anyway, moving on, how do you guys measure your own success or lack of?

Kat Ormerod:
For me personally, it’s based on my current situation with self esteem. It’s much more holistically where I am and how I feel as a person…

Jasmine Hemsley:
Same.

Kat Ormerod:
… whether something is a success or a failure.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
I need to say, success is not what you do, but it’s who you are. I always think if I could look in the mirror and like myself, then I’m winning, you know? And I think you’re right. When you’re younger, we’re told that success is, like you say, how much money you earn.

Kat Ormerod:
Looks a certain way.

Alesha Dixon:
Looks a certain way. And the older you get you realize, no, it’s not. It’s actually contentment within yourself.

Katrina Lake:
I love the way you put that, Katherine. I completely agree of just, I think what I thought was success when I was in college or starting Stitch Fix even was… it isn’t what I think about now. And it’s so fascinating because it’s not that I feel like it’s successful or not successful, but I do… Like that Forbes 40 Under 40 thing, when I was young, I thought that was an awesome thing.

Alesha Dixon:
Of course.

Katrina Lake:
And then when that happens, it was like yes, I’m grateful and I’m proud. I would say in that whole year, that wasn’t even one of the top 10 things that I was most proud of. And it is interesting how that definitely just changes over the course of your life.

Jasmine Hemsley:
I think it’s definitely about how you feel in and of yourself. I remember when I first learned to meditate 10 years ago, and it really struck me when my meditation teacher said… He gave an example of an actor friend of his who, his day was literally governed by what other people thought about him. And so his entire internal workings are literally being played by-

Alesha Dixon:
By other people.

Jasmine Hemsley:
By other people. So, I think it’s… that really made me realize how much I am looking for approval.

Alesha Dixon:
There’s a phrase that we hear a lot these days which is, “Fake it till you make it.” Have any of you ever applied for or found yourself in a role that you felt unqualified for?

Jasmine Hemsley:
Every single one.

Kat Ormerod:
Absolutely.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s so funny.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Literally every single one. Being true to yourself is obviously always a good thing, but sometimes you have to fool people.

Kat Ormerod:
Step outside your box.

Jasmine Hemsley:
You do, and you have to fool people a little bit. Because they’re not going to believe in you.

Alesha Dixon:
Blag it, I like to say.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah, but they don’t believe in you unless you believe in you.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And sometimes, you know what? You don’t believe in you. So, you have to pretend.

Alesha Dixon:
Impostor syndrome is something that a lot of women are experiencing. I mean, Katrina, is this something that you’ve ever suffered with?

Katrina Lake:
Well, I mean, even just the word fake it, too. As you’re talking about authenticity and all those things, I just think I hate that word fake it till you make it, even. Because it’s like, I’m the CEO of a company and every day I’m doing things I’ve never done before. And I can tell you, all of us don’t know what we’re doing.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Katrina Lake:
All of us are figuring it out as we go.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, learning on the job.

Katrina Lake:
And so I think any of these impostor syndrome and fake it till you make it has this underlying assumption that, oh, there’s this group of people here that have figured it out. But I think that being able to be on the other side, and now being able to see and know these people, and know they also are figuring it out as they go…

Alesha Dixon:
Exactly.

Katrina Lake:
… has helped me to not feel like an impostor in those situations. Because now I’m like, I may look different, but we’re all in this together. We’re all figuring this out, and I think that a lot of… I hope that one of the things that social media can help with, I think is that before there was social media and before you could see people authentically, I think it was really easy to assume that people that you saw in newsstands and articles were people who were in this box. And people who had figured it out and done it all already. And the reality is, that’s just not true.

Alesha Dixon:
I think you’re so right. And it’s really interesting to hear it from the side of someone like you who is at the top. I reckon that feels like a good point for us to take a short break while I give a quick message to the listeners. But we’ll be back in just a moment.

Alesha Dixon:
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Alesha Dixon:
Welcome back to Wear It’s At with me, Alesha Dixon. I’m here with Katrina Lake, Katherine Ormerod, and Jasmine Hemsley. Let’s get straight back to it. I wanted to also talk a bit about discrimination in the workplace. Katrina, is this something you’ve encountered?

Katrina Lake:
Indirectly, I think all the time. And as I look back, when I was raising money for Stitch Fix and I didn’t have the money to fund it myself, and we needed money to grow in the early years. And we had a real business where we had real customers who were paying to be styled, and we had vendors who were excited to work with us, and tons of clients who were willing to work with us or who were excited to work with us. And venture investors really had a hard time kind of understanding and seeing the business, and giving us money. And I think a lot of that had to do with the biases of who venture investors tend to be. And so most of the venture investors are men, most are white, most are rich. And so I think that helped, that prevents people from being able to see opportunity outside of their world.

Katrina Lake:
And so with Stitch Fix, this is about taking personal styling and making it mass market. And this is something that you don’t have to have a lot of money to be able to do, and so it was a much broader audience than who kind of venture investors tended to be. And I think venture investors were just a lot more comfortable giving money to people who look like them. And so to me, it reinforces the importance of diversity in places of power.

Alesha Dixon:
I mean, do you think women are still at a disadvantage in the workplace? I mean, we hear a lot about the gender pay gap. Is this something you’ve experienced?

Katrina Lake:
You know, it’s hard to say on the gender pay gap specifically. At Stitch Fix, we use a market based approach because of this exactly. Because if we are using a market based approach and people in the same job, doing the same thing are getting paid the same, the downside is that the squeakiest wheel does not get the grease. So, if you are coming to me and saying, “I need to get paid more, I need to get paid more.” That’s not going to be an effective way to get paid more. And so the downside is that people don’t feel like they are empowered over what they make. But the flip side is that it reduces a lot of bias that comes into the system. And so even for executive pay, like my pay, we actually use a market based approach so that we can feel really good that we’re kind of paying people for what they’re worth in the open market. But many, many companies don’t do that.

Katrina Lake:
And I think it’s a real challenge where not only can there potentially be a pay gap, it’s also in negotiating. If men are characteristically going to be negotiating more, if people are going to be promoting people who look like them more. There are so many companies in the U.S. and in the UK, frankly, that are beauty companies or apparel retail companies, that are run by men. And it makes no sense, it’s like there are tons of women who work at those companies and your end consumers by and large are women. And still at the same time, the company is run by a man?

Alesha Dixon:
Crazy.

Katrina Lake:
And then when they choose a new CEO, they bring in another man? I mean, we just see that happening over and over again. And I think it just has to do with people who are making decisions feeling more comfortable with people who look like them.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s crazy. I mean, Jasmine and Katherine, have you guys experienced the gender pay gap?

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah, but in a positive way.

Alesha Dixon:
In a positive way? The other way around?

Jasmine Hemsley:
I think I’m the only one that can… Sorry, this sounds really… Well, I think the modelling industry was probably the one industry where women were paid more than the guys.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s true. Yeah, interesting.

Jasmine Hemsley:
I mean, the man was the accessory or the prop. I think it’s like one of the…

Alesha Dixon:
Interesting.

Jasmine Hemsley:
… one industries where that happens.

Alesha Dixon:
We’ve talked about balancing work and life. I mean, it seems crazy to me, but you do hear about some people who don’t take all their holiday. I mean, do you think this is important and has it happened to you, Katherine?

Kat Ormerod:
One year, I had 20 holiday days left at the end of the holiday.

Katrina Lake:
What? I am…

Alesha Dixon:
And it doesn’t roll over?

Kat Ormerod:
Doesn’t roll over.

Alesha Dixon:
Wow.

Kat Ormerod:
You don’t get paid for it.

Katrina Lake:
Oh, I got paid for mine.

Alesha Dixon:
So, what was your reason for not?

Kat Ormerod:
So…

Alesha Dixon:
You couldn’t have just stayed at home?

Kat Ormerod:
No, I worked for a really demanding person who…

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
Okay, so was it fear?

Kat Ormerod:
It was fear. It was also fear that I would step away from my desk and something would go wrong. Something would be found out, someone behind my back might machinate something. It was a very presentee scenario.

Alesha Dixon:
Got you.

Kat Ormerod:
That if I wasn’t there to manage the way things went down, then maybe there wouldn’t be a job for me when I came back.

Alesha Dixon:
Wow.

Katrina Lake:
Wow.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah, it was hardcore. I had a proper Devil Wears Prada type experience in my early career, truly. And I would have… if I took a holiday, there would be screaming voicemails on my phone.

Katrina Lake:
Wow.

Alesha Dixon:
And if you do take a holiday and give yourself that time, do you ban all your work related emails or do you stay online?

Kat Ormerod:
I mean, I think if you run your own business, let’s be realistic.

Alesha Dixon:
You can’t switch off.

Kat Ormerod:
You’re not going to go away for two weeks and not answer something…

Alesha Dixon:
That’s right.

Kat Ormerod:
… because there could be an amazing opportunity.

Alesha Dixon:
Opportunity.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Exactly, you don’t want to miss it.

Kat Ormerod:
However, it-

Alesha Dixon:
Fear of missing out on goals.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah, yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And even as a freelancer, you cannot afford to really take a holiday.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, that’s right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Because we always had a saying that if the work’s not coming in, book a holiday.

Katrina Lake:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s true.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And then usually, the work will be just a bit more than the holiday that you’ve already paid for and you’re just left having a really crap holiday.

Alesha Dixon:
Oh, no.

Jasmine Hemsley:
All you’re left behind. I was always the friend that couldn’t make the plans in advance or was the one that kind of let people down. Because when you’re a freelancer, you take it while it’s there.

Alesha Dixon:
Okay, right. Do you guys have career tips that you’ve never forgotten? Who’s your career idol? Mine is Oprah Winfrey. I talk about her too much.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Oh, yeah.

Katrina Lake:
Oh, can mine be Oprah, too?

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, let’s share her.

Katrina Lake:
I love her.

Alesha Dixon:
I constantly quote Oprah. She’s just like my beacon of light. I’m like, “What would Oprah do? What would Oprah say?”

Katrina Lake:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
Oprah’s done it, anyone can do it. She is just…

Katrina Lake:
She is amazing.

Alesha Dixon:
Incredible.

Katrina Lake:
I couldn’t come up with anybody who is more epic than her.

Alesha Dixon:
I know. I’ve put the bar high.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And I think she wears her heart on her sleeve. So, she was the-

Katrina Lake:
She’s so human.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah, so human.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, exactly.

Jasmine Hemsley:
So relatable, so… we know her story, don’t we?

Katrina Lake:
Yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
It’s not like there was this perfect image put forward, and… Can I have her, too?

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Katrina Lake:
And she brings us along authentically on kind of everything, yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
I love the way she speaks to her team and she says to them, “If you bring me an idea, I want to know what your intention is. What are you trying to achieve? What is the purpose of this? How is this going to help people? Let’s be clear on those intentions before we move forward.” And I think that helps me with decision making in my own life. I think, what is the intent here? And it can’t feel soulless, and it’s knowing that you’re doing something for the right reason.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Oh, intent, I think intention is everything. If you want something to succeed or if you want something to have an impact, but your sole intention is to just make money or to just beat someone else to it, or to, I don’t know…

Alesha Dixon:
It won’t sit right with your spirit.

Jasmine Hemsley:
It won’t sit right, and…

Kat Ormerod:
That’s right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
… you’ll never feel fulfilled.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah. Is there any… I mean, you said you love Oprah. Is there somebody that you’ve kind of looked at and admired and thought, wow, they’ve done it well. I’d love to be able to do that.

Kat Ormerod:
Recently, actually, Beyonce. I watched the documentary and I just was bowled over by the way that she’d used obviously her epic talents, but the businesses around her which were created, and the platform that she had created to make a massive difference to a lot of people’s lives.

Alesha Dixon:
And the message as well.

Kat Ormerod:
The message, exactly.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Kat Ormerod:
And I really, really rate that. And I feel really motivated by that as well.

Alesha Dixon:
I love that. I love that and I love her. Do you know what you want to be in five years time? What about you, Jasmine? I get the feeling you’re an in the present moment type person.

Jasmine Hemsley:
I try to be mainly because I’m terrible at writing any kind of five year plan or three year plan.

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
I’m really just awful at that kind of stuff. But when I look back, there are times when I have… The things I have now or the things I’ve achieved now, the things that have shaped me now, are things that when I did give myself time, even not knowing that I was giving myself time, to really kind of feel the kind of things that I wanted to be doing with my time. They’ve kind of materialized.

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
And I just want to be a free flowing spirit, and design my life from a centered space. Because I can easily suddenly feel like I am beholden to do this and to do that, and to do that. And then I don’t feel very happy about what I’m doing.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah. And the thing that exists is the now.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah, is the now.

Alesha Dixon:
How about you, Katrina? Is there a plan? I mean, obviously you’ve just launched in the UK. Do you plan on taking over the world?

Katrina Lake:
I think, I mean, for now we’re just super excited to launch in the UK. And this is our first international market, and so we’re kind of just becoming accustomed to being a global company. And with Stitch Fix, there are so many more ways that we can take the business and so much just more clients we can reach. And so it feels like there’s a lot of possibility. In five years from now, I don’t know that it’s a revenue goal or a client goal or anything. But I think I would just… I would love to be able to look back five years from now and say, “We did… we had this amazing thing, and we were able to do so much more with it.” And I think, like Katherine, I’ve figured out a little bit of what I like and what I don’t like in my life.

Katrina Lake:
And so for me, it’s like as long as I’m in an environment where I’m learning and I’m being challenged, and I’m working with people that I love working with. That, I think, to me is what keeps me excited and motivated every day. And so I think as I’ve gotten more and more experience, I think I’ve been able to get more and more of those glimmers of what’s important to me in my working day that have helped me to be able to think about what five years from now might look like, even if the business is very different.

Alesha Dixon:
Sure.

Katrina Lake:
Or, even if we’re in different countries, or who knows?

Alesha Dixon:
That’s exciting as well. Very quickly, a little quickfire. What’s your go to interview big meeting outfit?

Jasmine Hemsley:
Trousers.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah?

Jasmine Hemsley:
Because I’m not an elegant sitter.

Alesha Dixon:
Right.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Some kind of… I like clothes that I feel very comfortable in. So, it probably wouldn’t be heels because I’d be very self conscious about them.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Something flowy but that looks smart. So, probably like a loose, cool suit that’s a bit undone with a T-shirt.

Alesha Dixon:
Sounds good. I can visualize it, very nice. What about you?

Kat Ormerod:
I’d be completely the opposite. [crosstalk 00:26:08] Yeah, I would definitely be in a dress.

Alesha Dixon:
You’re the balance.

Kat Ormerod:
Yes, for sure. There would definitely be heels.

Alesha Dixon:
Long? Short? Midi?

Kat Ormerod:
Something very structured around the waist. I like the idea of cinching. It’s like-

Alesha Dixon:
Oh, I can’t breathe then.

Kat Ormerod:
But it makes you hold yourself… I find it makes me hold myself, like my strong posture.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Kat Ormerod:
Something that’s got some kind of fashion new to it. So, it’s got a design detail either at the neckline or an interesting print. And a really great handbag that’s expensive and invested in, and it makes me feel that I am expensive and worth investing in.

Alesha Dixon:
Yes. I love that, that’s brilliant. That’s really good.

Katrina Lake:
Amazing visuals.

Alesha Dixon:
What about you, Katrina?

Katrina Lake:
I also gravitate more towards a dress. And I think for me, I love wearing something that has a pop or a print, or something that’s just going to be a little exciting. But I think at the flip side of not… You know sometimes you put on a dress and you’re like, this thing is wearing me?

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katrina Lake:
It’s too cool. And so I tend to go someplace in between mom and really cool, of something that makes me feel a little bit cool but not trying too hard.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah, effortless.

Katrina Lake:
Yeah, more effortless. Exactly, yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
I like that. Okay, so now if you could work with one person, who would it be and why?

Kat Ormerod:
So, I would like to work at Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg because I think in this day in age, obviously it’s one of the most inscrutable places to ever find anything out about, full stop. Obviously, I’ve built a lot of my career off new media. I’ve written a book about it. So, I would really want to be in the lion’s den.

Katrina Lake:
Wow.

Kat Ormerod:
And be able to peel back the layers and find out…

Alesha Dixon:
That’s cool.

Kat Ormerod:
… the real machinations in working.

Alesha Dixon:
I like that.

Katrina Lake:
That would be a hard job.

Kat Ormerod:
It would be.

Alesha Dixon:
Yes, she’s got her handbag ready.

Kat Ormerod:
Yeah. I’m like, “I’m not doing these American holidays, right?”

Alesha Dixon:
What about you, ladies?

Katrina Lake:
If I could work with anyone, that’s the prompt.

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Katrina Lake:
I’m such a kind of structured, organized, spreadsheet… I would love to work with an amazing creative of… I mean, the first person that popped in my head was Alexander McQueen, but so many people in the fashion world do have this ability to create a whole world in their minds and just live it. And I think there’s something that would be really fun to me to work with somebody who was super different from me. And that you could maybe combine what we’re both good at…

Alesha Dixon:
Yeah.

Katrina Lake:
… and make something crazy.

Alesha Dixon:
I love that, too. That’s cool. Jasmine? She’s like, “I don’t want to work with anyone. Done.”

Jasmine Hemsley:
Actually, a guy called Paul Hawken, who I’ve met a couple of times, he gave an incredible speech about climate change a couple of years ago at a festival called Revitalize in Arizona. And he and his friends basically were so frustrated about these kind of tips for limiting the acceleration of our planet kind of self destructing. And he basically just collected data with his friends, they got incredible people on board and they just kind of went for it. And then they actually took the information to the experts in every different country and said, “Here it is. This is non biased. We have collected it from all sources.”

Jasmine Hemsley:
He’s somebody that I would follow into a peaceful battle, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? I think he’s going to make… that kind of person is what we need because as soon as I heard him speak I was like, “Oh, if I wasn’t doing this, I would do that.”

Alesha Dixon:
Really?

Jasmine Hemsley:
Yeah.

Alesha Dixon:
That’s really cool. I think that’s a nice place to end. So, I’ll also say thank you to all three of you for joining me today.

Kat Ormerod:
Thank you.

Alesha Dixon:
It’s been an absolute pleasure. I’ve learned from you, and hopefully lots of people will be inspired by what you had to say. So, thank you very much.

Kat Ormerod:
Thank you, Alesha. Thank you, ladies.

Katrina Lake:
Thank you.

Jasmine Hemsley:
Thank you.

Alesha Dixon:
Okay, lovely listeners. We want to hear the best advice you’ve ever received when it comes to the world of work. Tell us on Instagram by tagging @StitchFixUK and #WearItsAt. And if you haven’t already, don’t forget to register at StitchFix.co.uk so you’re ready with that killer outfit when you need it most. Stitch Fix and I also want to say a huge, huge thank you to you for turning up, tuning in, and supporting season one of Wear It’s At. We’ve had an absolute blast. Stay tuned, and we’ll be back soon.